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hugh
LibriVox Admin Team
Joined: 26 Sep 2005
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Location: Montreal, QC
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 Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 5:07 pm Post subject: librivox: apologia |
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It's been a while since I wrote a longish piece on LibriVox. Peter Kerry Powers, a Professor of English and chair of the English department at Messiah College, wrote a piece about audio books, and LibriVox, here. I commented on that post, Peter answered here, and this was my comment to on his second piece (i’ve edited it slightly, some of it is in direct answer to Peter’s stuff, so you might want to check out what he had to say, but I think it all should make sense on its own):
| Quote: | i’ll defer to your analysis of dickens, but the wider point is that the roots - some ancient, some more recent - of text literature is oral. so “reading” is a particular type of experience of literature, but not the only one, not the oldest one. as to the value of these different experiences of literature, I think that’s up to those who experience it to decide and describe. Certainly reading text and listening are not the same thing, but how one values one or the other is surely a matter for the individual to assess. If audio books *result* in a decrease in (paper)text reading, then I will be with you in decrying the loss of a certain type of skill and experience, one that cannot be replaced by listening (or by reading online for that matter). But I don’t think it’s the case that audio books result in less reading; I suspect the opposite, but I have no proof of that.
As for myself, some of my own most formative experiences of literature involved my mother reading to me: RLS’s Kidnapped; The Trumpeter Swan; Stuart Little; The Hobbit; and countless others. It never occurred to me to criticize my mother for stumbles, substandard reading or non-NPR intonations. Some of the philosophy behind LibriVox is a recreation of that interaction: not a professional performance of a text (there are plenty of those available), but instead an intimate experience of someone reading to you - with all the little warts and idiosyncrasies that come with intimate readings.
For someone who aggressively promotes this philosophy, check out Miette, an occasional LibriVox volunteer, and one of the first audiolit podcasters in the universe. She is at once “professional” in sound and approach, and also intimate and personal. Her stuff is very much: Miette reading to you; rather than Miette performing a text. See:
http://www.miettecast.com/
The other issues you’ve raise all relate to a common problem - this is true of much of the web in general - which is a misunderstanding of what LibriVox is for. Mainly, you are looking at LibriVox as “provider of audio books,” in the model of a traditional publisher whose job (at least as it is usually understood) is to produce books that readers want to purchase.
It might be easier to consider LibriVox not as a publisher, but rather as a library, at least as far as our relations to the listeners are concerned. That is, you would not go into a library, pull out five random books, and say, “I didn’t like these books, this library is no good, the books here are all crap.” This is the same impulse people have when they say: “bloggers are self-obsessed, they rant and rave and have bad grammar, and I will never waste my time reading blogs because they are stupid.” … It’s true that some blogs are stupid, but not true of any I read, not true of this blog. So the problem is not “blogs”; the problem, among others, is that people don’t know how to find blogs that they like reading. And they are faced with a similar problem you express about LibriVox, because they say: “Well, you say there is good stuff on blogs, but how do I find it in the sea of crap?” You and I know the answer, but it’s not so clear how to express the ways to “find” good blogs to read in a general sense. In the non-web world, when you open a newspaper, you are guaranteed a certain quality/type of writing by the masthead; ditto when you open a Penguin Classic or a Vintage Paperback or when you walk into a certain section of the books store. The web world works differently, and the “guarantee” is delivered differently, in my case from something like “network authority.”
But getting back to LibriVox, our objective is:
“To make all books in the public domain available, for free, in audio format on the internet.”
So we evaluate how we do things based on that objective. And partly for reasons of various kinds of idealism, but also in large part for pragmatic reasons, we’ve decided (rightly, I think), that criticism, ratings, particularly bad ratings are a hindrance to our objective, not a help. The main reason is that recording texts is difficult, and putting them out into public is a traumatic and sensitive thing for many people to do. Criticism, especially unsolicited negative criticism, turns people off from recording. But, we have an objective, stated above, and that objective is not: “To make the best audio …” or “BBC-quality audio …” Rather our objective is to record “all public domain texts.” We need all the help we can get, and we do what we can to “protect” our readers from harsh criticism that will stop them from participating.
So in fact, I think it is entirely fair for you to say that (some) LibriVox recordings are dull. Or annoying. Or both. I agree with you, or rather, that has been my experience of some LibriVox recordings. But I have the same experience with any random collection of text or audio books or music or art. And that’s what LibriVox is, a random collection. If fact, I personally find random collections of professionally-read audio books have a much higher quotient of dull and annoying than a random collection from LibriVox, but that's my personal preference about style: humanity over professional performance. And certainly for me, it is totally incorrect to say *most* LV recordings are dull or annoying.
A few points of interest come out of this:
a) there are plenty of professional, "high-quality" audiobooks available for a price; our books are free if anyone wants them (and if they don’t, no matter)
b) if you compare our catalog to older “free” audio lit projects, projects that DO have high “standards” (eg literalsystems.org), our catalog is much bigger … which means that we have provided a resource, that would not be there otherwise, for those who want it. whether people like or use the resource or not is another question.
c) in our large catalog, there is an impressive amount of beautifully-read stuff, searchable by reader, some great ones include: david barnes, andy minter, karen savage, gord mackenzie, kara shallenberg … the list is much longer.
So the *result* of our fundamental policy to take all comers, and turn away no one, results in a strange catalog filled with lots of stuff that sometimes *is* dull, or “badly” read, or hard to listen to, for some people, especially if you are expecting a certain style of audio. But that does not mean that these more idiosyncratic readings don’t have any value. And our approach also results in a large number of good recordings (mine, for instance, I think fall somewhere between badly-read and good … they seem worth doing to me; certainly my more recent ones are "better" than older ones); and a surprising number of extraordinary recordings, that I would put toe to toe with any professional recordings.
Now your problem is finding the good stuff, and I sympathize with it. I think we could/should probably do something like an informal “recommendation” page. But again, if you look at our objective, helping people find good LibriVox stuff is not our “job.” …Our job is to make the audio, and make it available for free. .
It’s the “job” of the rest of the web to start sorting out this resource we are providing, and sorting the good stuff. Metafilter is a work-around starting point, but eventually someone will put up a site that sifts thru librivox audio and finds the really good stuff. And if you follow links from our catalog page, you’ll get to the Internet Archive, where our audio is hosted, and there you will find some ratings. But we don’t publicize that.
There is more to write on the relationship between ratings & an open project like LibriVox, but the ink in my pen is running out, and I wanted to touch on a couple more of your points.
In particular: “To some degree I think he’s suggesting that Librivox is really more like a blog service where readers can express themselves via recording.”
This is another misreading of what we are up to. LibriVox has a particular objective (quoted above). It is not for self-expression, etc., tho that might motivate some people. It’s got a very particular purpose, to provide a complete library of public domain books, in audio format. So, people are motivated to pitch in for lots of different reasons, but our decision-making about how or why we do things always has to answer to our objective.
“It’s also the case that in reading a published work, the reader puts himself/herself in the position of performer/artist who is interpreting the work of another artist.”
That is one way to look at it. You could also say, “the reader puts him/herself in the position of human who is doing their best to make a public domain text available in audio format.”
Now I know you’ll probably say I am picking at semantic bones there, but the first motivation/role is not the same as the second, and they will result in different approaches to recording, and different results. And you can argue with me about the “value” of the first or second motivation, but in the end it doesn’t matter because I (and, generally, people who buy into what LibriVox is trying to do) disagree with you. And you might further say I (and the rest of the gang) are wasting our time, but it is our time to waste.
Now if *everyone* said: “you’re wasting your time,” I and others might start scratching our heads, and wondering if this open project idea was kind of stupid after all. But we get enough emails & blog comments from people saying: “wow, what wonderful work you are doing,” that it’s easy enough to shrug the shoulders at those who say otherwise. And, amazingly to me, our audio books get downloaded thousands, and sometimes hundreds of thousands of times. For instance, Hobbes’ Leviathan, published by us 2 days ago, has been downloaded 1,671 times! In 2 days! … Which, you, as a writer of books will recognize is the kind of number that DOES appeal to the ego and excitement of the people who participate in LibriVox, for all sorts of non-altruistic reasons. Which is fine, because that kind of excitement helps us with our objective.
Finally, to Puccini and Pavarotti, if I were them, I would be horrified to know that someone was telling people to stop singing in my name. That doesn’t mean I want to listen to bad opera, but there are so many reasons people don’t sing opera any more, so many reasons people don’t read any more, so many reasons people don’t celebrate literature, and I don’t want to be another contributor to all the things that discourage reading (or opera). I would much prefer to find ways to help encourage people to share literature, to discover great books - and mediocre books too - and to spread literature, to get closer to text, to reading, to the sounds of words and the ideas behind them; in the case of LirbiVox those people are behind the microphone, and on the other side of earphones…
And in its essence, LibriVox is not about audio books, it is about people, of all types and all skills, reading and recording public domain texts, and making them available for free for anyone who wants to listen. We work hard to help that happen, and whatever happens next is something we spend much less time worrying about.
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Last edited by hugh on Sat Feb 16, 2008 6:21 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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hefyd
Joined: 27 Jan 2007
Posts: 1176
Location: UK. Accent : gorblimey, with scouse highlights.
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| Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 5:54 pm Post subject: Brilliant ! |
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Well done Hugh -brilliant !! hefyd
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SmokestackJones
Joined: 21 Aug 2006
Posts: 261
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 6:03 pm Post subject: |
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Hey Hugh,
Very good. Bravo.
After reading the original post, please allay Professor Powers fears for me. I will no longer be turning literary classics into mush.
-SJ
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mlemmons
Joined: 10 Nov 2007
Posts: 180
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 6:03 pm Post subject: |
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This is a very interesting conversation.
I would like to say in regards to the aspersions cast upon listening to a book while doing something else, that in the past I have tried to do most of my tasks while reading a paper book. I would walk between classes with a book in my hand, I tried with varied success to crochet or knit while reading, and if I could I would wash dishes while reading. Usually, on car trips, I will bring two or three books with me. With Librivox, I can now work more efficiently and still get enjoyment from a good book.
Also, there are some books that I just could not stand to read because they have too many lengthy passages of description. However, I can listen to and enjoy them, because I can slightly tune out the description and then tune back in when the story is back. (also, sometimes the description is more interesting when you hear someone else interpret it for you).
I am very grateful for Librivox, both as a reader and a listener. I love books and feel that everyone should have the same deep love that I do. I truly enjoy knowing that when I record a chapter or a book that I am helping someone else experience literature.
Melissa
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kayray
LibriVox Admin Team
Joined: 26 Sep 2005
Posts: 9939
Location: San Diego, California
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| Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 6:08 pm Post subject: |
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Beautiful, Hugh.
(Melissa, I love your sig!)
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jpandya
Joined: 03 Nov 2007
Posts: 202
Location: California
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| Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 6:31 pm Post subject: |
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| That is the whole reason I introduced my children to audiobooks. I know a lot of parents who are just horrified at the idea of their children being introduced to anything other than the paper version of a great book - which is why so many children are growing up ignorant of such classics as Tom Sawyer and The Secret Garden. My daughter is a terrific reader, but like me she has varied interests and is usually going in 15 directions at once. At the age of 8, she does not have the patience to plow through a volume of Dickens. But listening to a great reading of Hard Times gives her an appreciation for Dickens and his works, and she is more likely to read him in the future. I don't have to stand over with a lash and force her to read classic literature that she isn't really ready for. She will often hear a recording on Librivox, then go seek out the book at the library. And my son, who is only 5 (today is his birthday, in fact) loves audiobooks. The opportunity to hear great works on Librivox, as well as listening to more modern books on CD, has opened up an enormous world of literature for him. How many other 5 year olds can get enjoyment out of James Thurber's "A Ride With Olympy" (from PRI's Selected Shorts podcast, which I highly recommend)? |
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hugh
LibriVox Admin Team
Joined: 26 Sep 2005
Posts: 7251
Location: Montreal, QC
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| Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 6:34 pm Post subject: |
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heh, yes! "stop it! stop it, child! stop experiencing great literature like that!! you are doing it wrong!!!!"
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jpandya
Joined: 03 Nov 2007
Posts: 202
Location: California
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| Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 6:40 pm Post subject: |
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| hugh wrote: | heh, yes! "stop it! stop it, child! stop experiencing great literature like that!! you are doing it wrong!!!!"
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Bad, bad, bad.....*reddens* Both my children also have their very own ipods, so they can listen to audiobooks (almost) whenever and wherever they want. I know.....Donkey Kong is so much better for the hand-eye coordination.
Edit: Librivox also gave me the idea to record some of my son's favorite picture books to put on his ipod. |
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Cloud Mountain
LibriVox Admin Team
Joined: 01 Jul 2006
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Location: Jersey Shore, N.
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| Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 7:51 pm Post subject: |
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While I sense this topic is more a discussion on "reading" vs "listening" to written text, I thought I'd write a few comments on "style" and its place here in LV. My own personal opinions, of course.
I'm ever curious to know how it might sound to hear commentators on "reading interpretation" read and interpret things themselves. It's unfortunate that such opportunities don't accompany the comments. I've sat through plenty of graduate lit classes lead by professors reading in mediocre style --or sometimes w-a-y over the top. Would you be surprised to know that most authors cannot read ("interpret") their own works? Something to do with proclivity or ability or inclination --or sales. Poets reading their own poems are often wonderful examples of how NOT to read a poem. Listen to a few "classic" recordings and you'll see what I mean. Many give idiosyncratic readings. At best, you recognize the person immediately. Do their readings help you to understand their poems? Yes, to an extent. Do their readings fit right in among us LV readers? Absolutely.
Also, how often it is that words (written or spoken) are used to comment or criticize, but seldom does the critic make positive suggestions on how things might be made better. Or, in LV's case, do they show appreciation for people rather than ideals, conceptualizations of what constitutes a "preferred" reading, or is the suggestion that a specific reading, interpretation, is what's better for us all. What's the breaking point between acceptable and unacceptable? There are tens and tens and tens of thousands of LV downloads. What do the numbers tell us? Are they downloaded because they're free. Are they downloaded because they're tollerable? Are they downloaded because they're great to listen to? Are theyu downloaded because they are not professional, but down-to-earth. It's my suspicion that someone "teaching" in an institution of "higher learning" and works within a more conceptual realm than most, may not have a "full" view of this. (Who anyway does, right?) I think was have to consider "audience," a primary consideration in all human communication. Marginalizing anyone, even a single isolated, homey LV reader, is unfortunate for all of us.
Were LV to be a place where we were continually commenting on "how to," rather than sticking to LV's mission, it would not be the accommodating place it is --and volunteers would be dropping by the roadsides in the middle of most projects.
People who "know" what they're doing are out making money (and listeners must pay to listen to their readings.) Other people, not so sure of themselves but wonderfully enthusiastic (and who can afford little $ for recording set-ups) are more sensitive and would be driven away by constant criticism. It's notable that for every "pro" there are probably 100 more who tried or thought themselves to be pros. With hundreds of voice-over schools in the US, how man "graduates" get work? |
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NightOwl
Joined: 10 Jan 2008
Posts: 312
Location: Taiwan
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| Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 3:28 pm Post subject: |
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English is not my native language. So I don't know what your feeling about this language. For me, English is the putting-26-characters-together-in different-combinations-and-pronounce-them kind of thing.
When I read English books, I "read" them in my mind. If the words would not make any sound in my mind, the language doesn't make a lasting impression on me. Why would people argue about if you listen to the "sound" of a book you really are not reading it unless you "see" the combination of words in front of you. Maybe because they are worrying about people who can talk but can not spell what they are saying. But after that what are they worrying about?
Sometimes when you read a book, all the words became ideas/impressions/etc. and you know the meaning behind the words and you totally forget what the words are. What is more important? The combination of words or the meaning behind the words? I think if your goal is to be a public orator or going into politics or business, then you might want to put emphasis on how the words are put together to make an important point. Otherwise, why argue about how other people learn to get the story/points?
Being a non-native English speaker, I learned a lot of English reading/listening/writing/speaking skills by listening to audio books. Honestly, I did not know my English had improved so much after listening to 250 audio books, until my friend (who hadn't seen me for 6 months and she is a native English speaker) told me that my English improved so much that she was amazed.
One of my friend (who teaches English in the university) even bought a lot of English audio books for her nephews and nieces as a tool for them to learn English (language and literature as well). She got her Ph.D in English Literature and Language (from University of Washington-Seattle). She even bought some audio books of great contemporary authors (including Toni Morrison's--read by the author, I believe). When she learned that Librivox provides PD audio books, she really appreciated Librivoxer's contributions. Actually, she had some ideas of using audio books for her class, and PD sources would be perfect.
Reading ("seeing" the words) might still be important, but listening would not damage the reading ability, I believe. This is definitely not the same as watching the movie-adaptation to pass for reading "the book" for the homework. Listening an unabridged literature is reading the same book. I've listened to the whole set of Jane Austen's books and have read them many times. There's no differences. I've listened to J.R.R. Tolkien's "Lord of the Rings", and I've bought the hard copies of almost all his LoTR books (including "The Silmarillion" etc.). I would imaging listening to "The Simarillion" would be hard (I might fall asleep within 10 minutes of listening).
For a non-native speaker, listening to a correctly pronounced audio book can induce me to enjoy the book more. Sometimes, I just can't imagine how those words/names/places/things are pronounced, so the words/names/places/things would just disappear without a trace in my mind. Once I know the pronunciation, I can pick up the pace quickly, and the literary works would be imprinted in my mind. That's my personal experience as a non-native English speaker. I do not know about other people, though.
p.s. Some authors are just not good readers (great sci-fi author like Asimov has a dull voice), some professional readers aren't good (e.g. Steven Fry's first Harry Potter was not as good as his latest Potter book). Some people like more dramatic interpretations in audio books, some listeners hate that.  But I love the dramatic interpretation. I dislike the rendition of Flo's in Jane Austen's books, but people told me that she is the best Jane Austen's reader. Some people like apples, some people like oranges. Who put us in the position to judge what other people should do or listen? I like Barara Rosenblatt's reading. She puts a lot of drama in her rendition. I love it so much that I tried to listen to all her audio books.
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genecode
Joined: 18 Feb 2008
Posts: 187
Location: Canton, Hongkong, Pearl Delta
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| Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 4:30 am Post subject: |
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| NightOwl wrote: | English is not my native language. So I don't know what your feeling about this language. For me, English is the putting-26-characters-together-in different-combinations-and-pronounce-them kind of thing.
... |
Speaking Chinese as well, I may share the same feeling with you, as a person whose native language is based in ways of pictographs and ideographs, rather than more phonetically dominated.
However, on your saying "putting-26-characters-together-in different-combinations-and-pronounce-them", I beg to differ. All languages integrate both meaning and pronunciation information into their written languages. And the meaning of every word is culturally rooted.
In my opinion, the best way for a non-native speaker to appreciate the literature in a foreign language is: based on your understanding of its cutlure and history, upon either reading or listening to the words, convert them to feeling or picturizing in your mind, to see and to comprehend the world the author's created by word in illustration.
This way works very well with me, and works best with literature written in narrative form, or dramas! |
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bublsort
Joined: 18 May 2007
Posts: 277
Location: Los Angeles, CA
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| Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 5:05 am Post subject: |
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| genecode wrote: |
However, on your saying "putting-26-characters-together-in different-combinations-and-pronounce-them", I beg to differ. All languages integrate both meaning and pronunciation information into their written languages. |
I realize both that you're speaking casually and that this doesn't have much to do with this thread, but just for the record, this is not really accurate. Most written language and even signed language is pretty arbitrary with respect to meanings it represents, with some exceptions. Also lots of written language does not correspond to how it is spoken. |
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genecode
Joined: 18 Feb 2008
Posts: 187
Location: Canton, Hongkong, Pearl Delta
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| Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 5:12 am Post subject: Re: librivox: apologia |
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Bravo!
Well saying about Librivox.
| hugh wrote: | | And in its essence, LibriVox is not about audio books, it is about people, of all types and all skills, reading and recording public domain texts, and making them available for free for anyone who wants to listen. We work hard to help that happen, and whatever happens next is something we spend much less time worrying about. |
There is a bit something I want to add about what I think of LibriVox.
It's about passion, passion of people, or people with passion.
The essential difference between LibriVox audiobooks and any other kinds of commercial(professional) audiobooks, is not that whether it is Free or not. It's either there is real passion or feelings toward the books they are reading or not. LibriVox readers read a book voluntarily,spontaneously and naturally. One chooses a book to read only because he/she loves it and wants to share his/her feelings in his/her voice with others by listening to the recording.
It is the passion makes all LibriVox audiobooks so special and it is the passion lets all more than twenty versions of one same poem reading by different Librivox volunteers makes sense because you can enjoy more than twenty different people interpret the same poem and share different passion conveyed in their different voices.
Maybe someone may argue that some commercial audiobooks are also read by professional readers with emotions and tones.
However, there is always room for the doubt of one's sincerity when he/she does it to get paid.
People can enjoy Librivox audiobooks because it is free of charge.
People can enjoy Librivox audiobooks more when we meet the passion and empathy we all share in the very same book we love. |
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genecode
Joined: 18 Feb 2008
Posts: 187
Location: Canton, Hongkong, Pearl Delta
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| Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 5:25 am Post subject: |
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Languages such as Chinese, Japanese or some other Asian languages are actually based in ways of pictographs and ideographs, rather than more phonetically dominated. and thus most of the time can correspond to the meanings they represent in their specific culture and society.
And I still believe that all kinds of language have their deep cultural roots.
Once you can understand the cultrual and histrorical roots of one language, you can make sense out of how the written language correspond the spoken language.
[quote="bublsort"] | genecode wrote: |
Most written language and even signed language is pretty arbitrary with respect to meanings it represents, with some exceptions. Also lots of written language does not correspond to how it is spoken. |
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bublsort
Joined: 18 May 2007
Posts: 277
Location: Los Angeles, CA
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| Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 5:42 am Post subject: |
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| genecode wrote: | Languages such as Chinese, Japanese or some other Asian languages are actually based in ways of pictographs and ideographs, rather than more phonetically dominated. and thus most of the time can correspond to the meanings they represent in their specific culture and society.
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Some Chinese characters did start as directly representing meaning, but by now they're pretty arbitrary. If you weren't educated in Chinese it's pretty hard to look at a character and know what it means. Once you see the character for river*, and someone tells you what it represents, you can see how it is supposed to represent a river. But if you didn't know you might think it was "three" or "noodles" or something.
*assuming it's the same one as in Japanese. I read Japanese but not Chinese.
| genecode wrote: |
And I still believe that all kinds of language have their deep cultural roots.
Once you can understand the cultrual and histrorical roots of one language, you can make sense out of how the written language correspond the spoken language.
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Well, yes to the first part... second part is best addressed in depth elsewhere. |
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